23.11.2006, 19:32
Keller: What would have happened if Hogan had stayed babyface? One of the criticisms - and it's hard to criticize the first couple of years becaus it was so successful ratings-wise - but one of the early criticisms of the NWO was that you talk about having done a lot of jobs, but on PPV, you were beating the Steiners, you were beating Kevin Sullivan's guys, you were beating Harlem Heat, you were coming out on top of the Four Horsemen. The babyfaces weren't built up as being really strong, and it was weak to begin with, so when Hogan sided with you guys, that left Sting as the only guy, and then after that it was Dallas Page, and then after a while along came Goldberg. It was such a weak babyface roster, do you think if Hogan hadn't turned, the NWO could have stayed hot, but it would have been from a longevity standpoint, maybe Hogan as the top babyface would have worked?
Hall: I think at that point in his career, I think sitting on that jet plane, I'm just guessing, I think sitting on that private jet on the way to Daytona, Hulk had to make a decision. What am I going to do? And I think - he had already seen us for a few weeks. It had been a month or whatever. Me and Kev were building some momentum, we were building some steam. I don't think it would have worked - the whole NWO thing would have never worked without Hulk, in my opinion. Like I said earlier, and I'll repeat it again: Hulk's the f'n man. You gotta remember, we get to tell people we're the guys who turned Hulk into a bad guy. Then they go, "Oh, yeah, I remember you guys." I think, you're asking if Hulk had stayed babyface and worked against me and Kev, like Hulk & Sting against Hall & Nash, I don't see it.
Keller: The thing is, fans would have turned against Hulk, and they would have cheered you.
Hall: That's what I mean. The whole thing about it, too, was like, we were kinda cool. We came off that New York TV. We were the sh--. One time I remember me and Kev were standing next to Brad Siegel, Emily's uncle. I said, "Kev, you smell somethin'?" He said, "Yeah, I smell it." I said, "It's us, cause we're the sh--." I mean, we just tortured this guy.
Keller: I think Hulk chose that moment to turn for a reason, because he knew he wanted to be cool again. He wasn't.
Hall: I mean, like I told you before, Hulk told me that when he was a babyface and they were booing him, that sucks, man. That ain't a good feeling. It got to the point where they couldn't even put Hulk on TV because they were booing him. Nitro used to blow. Nitro used to suck. And they couldn't even put their highest paid guy on TV because the fans were booing. You know how marks get. Especially if they think they're getting to you, you're f---ed. If they think they're getting under your skin, you're really f---ed. But, I mean, to have 20 thousand people chanting, "Hogan sucks! Hogan sucks! Hogan sucks!" I mean, what do you do? I think Hulk made a very smart decision. I think he had seen what me and Kev were doin'. At that time, too, you gotta remember, he didn't know me and Kev. I had his attorney do my first contract, that Henry Holmes. He represents George Foreman, Pamela Anderson, Hulk, Mach, this dude is a celebrity lawyer. Then, all of a sudden, you know, it got **** -blocked. So one thing I will give Hulk props for, because one time I asked him, "Did you **** -block me on the Henry Holmes deal?" He said, "Yeah." I said, "I know you, man." He said, "I told him you can't represent him." I said, "I respect you for at least owning up to it." I just got a different lawyer.
Keller: You talked about what a shark tank WCW was. Hogan was used to shark tanks, and he wanted to protect his turf. And he is the ultimate self-preservationis t. And you guys came in, and you guys were hot. He knew he was getting booed. He was vulnerable. You may look back and think it's crazy to say this because Hulk is Hulk, but Hulk probably felt insecure at that moment that he was going to lose leverage, so you guys became his enemies, in a sense, and the best way to deal with that is to get on the team.
Hall: It wasn't always like a real sweet relationship. We had some ups and downs. I'm not gonna lie about it. I'm sure Hulk would say the same thing, and so would Kev. But, we realized that if we would put our petty differences aside and work as a unit that with Hulk's famous noteriety and me and Kev's ability - between the three of us, we were a strong f---ing package. We felt that way. The one thing I always learned, too, I learned early, early on when I broke in, if you act like you're the sh--, you are the sh--. Know what I mean? I learned when I first broke in, you're working as soon as you walk in the curtain. You don't wait for the bell to ring. As soon as you hit the curtain, you're on, you're workin'.
I'll never forget, my first match at Madison Square Garden, I wrestled Randy Savage. I'm standing there. I think I told you last time. My music's playing, and I'm f---ing nervous as f---. Oh my god, Madison Square Garden, Randy Savage, what the f---. And I'm beatin' Savage. Savage don't do no jobs. It's kind of a tense f---in' deal. I'm standin' there and Vince is right there with me. And I'm fixing to hit the curtain because my music has been playing for a little while. Vince said, "Let 'im wait." Let 'im wait." It was like a learning experience for me because I went, "Wow, you're f---n't right." If you act like you're the sh--, you are the sh--. Cause the fans don't know. They buy tickets to come and see a show. They want to see a show. They want to see stars. A lot of people bury (John) Cena. I don't know what your opinion is of John Cena. When I watch him - I've always said, ideally you would be a good worker and be over, but it's better to be over. It don't do you no good to be a good worker. I don't mean to bury Brad Armstrong because he's a sweetheart and I love him to death. Brad Armstrong is one of the best workers in the history of this business, but never really was over, know what I mean? He could f---n' go an hour through with anybody, but he never really was over. I'm not criticizing John Cena because I know he's just developing. I've only seen him a handful of times. He gets booed in towns. What's so funny is it's become hip to boo him. In the northern markets and down south they cheer him. They've almost made hit his gimmick that he don't give a f---.
Keller: He does what you just said - don't let them know they're getting under your skin.
Hall: Exactly. He comes out, he does his sh--. I think he sells pretty good. I think he just needs more ring time. I think he's one of the hottest things they've got going on. I was talking to Kev and I said, "What's the deal with Cena?" He said, "You knoow, his merchandise sells more than anybody else's." So they might boo him, but they're buying his sh--.
Keller: I think the booing makes the fan base that he does have all the more defensive, so they want to go out and buy merchandise.
Hall: I used to always say that, too. I'd rather have people booing me than be quiet. I wrestled Shawn Michaels every day for almost two and a half years and Shawn Michaels, I was kind of a babyfae. We wrestled each other when we were both heels. But I was a babyface, he was a heel, but he a was pretty mother f---er. The chicks liked him. Guy hated him, chick's hated him. We had a great thing going on for two and a half years, every night, all around the world, but it was the same thing. Sometimes people would boo or cheer and it makes the other people get off their asses. If people started cheering Shawn, then the other people would start going, "Razor! Razor!" I agree with you. I used to think sometimes they should plant people in the audience. If you really want to get sophisticated, plant some people in the audience or just pipe it into the p.a. system, if you really want to get slick about it. Vince used to do it before. Before they went live, they used to send Gene Okerlund out and he'd go, "Ladies and gentleman, how many people are here to see the Ultimate Warrior?" People were like, "Yeahhhh!" They take a shot of the whole arena cheering. Then they'd say, "How many people are here to see Kamala?" They'd go, "Boooo!" Then, when you hit the aisle, they'd edit it all in. Kevin Dunn would edit all that sh-- in with people going, "Yeahhhh!" They called it sweetening. They'd turn up the cheers, turn up the boos. I don't know. I'm babbling again.
Keller: When the NWO angle started, especially after Hulk Hogan joined it, and you're looking at the babyface side, did you guys ever sit around and go, "Who are we going to wrestle?"
Hall: I gave Sting "The Crow" gimmick. We were standing next to each other in North Carolina and I'm slicking my hair back and he's sitting there in his neon sh--, but he's not dyeing his hair anymore. He's not bleaching it anymore. And he's letting his hair grow out. And I don't know Sting. He's always been a big deal. When I was in WCW before, I was a jabroni and he was a big star. I went to New York and I've only been (back in WCW) a week or two. So we're standing next to each other at the sinks in the locker room. I'm slickin' my sh-- back because I've gotta go do an interview or something. So Sting enters and I say, "You growin' your hair out, huh?" He goes, "Yeah." I said, "You still gonna wear the neon happy-guy stuff?" He goes, "Yeah, yeah." I said, "You ever see The Crow, man?" He went, "No, I didn't see it." I said, "You outta check it out, man. The guy kinda has his stuff drippin' down. I'm not telling you to trip off the Undertaker, but he kinda acts like Taker." I told him that. And I tell ya' what, he gives me props for it. I will say this. Dallas's book, Sting's quote, he gives me props. He did it on Home Shopping Network one time, he gave me props. To me, that's all I need to know. I just want Sting to know I gave him that gimmick. That's the only satisfaction I need. I don't need none of your royalties or that bullsh--.
But talking about babyfaces to work with, at that time, we didn't care. We felt like our job was to just get over. Cause, the one reference Eric Bischoff always made was, he wanted it to be likehe always references the movie, "Independence Day." Cause remember how no matter what would happen, bam bam bam, all of a sudden this huge spaceship, even when you think the movie's over, the big spaceship rises up and the sh--'s still going on. That was Bischoff's deal. He wanted it to be like the NWO just was indestructible, indestructible, indestructible until the time was right. So we didn't care about heel, babyface, it doesn't f---in' matter. Just get over. So, we didn't really worry about opponents. We just tried to get over.
Keller: And really, for people who watched every single week and were waiting for the next chapter, it got a little repetitive.
Hall: I agree. It got stale. It was getting f---in' stale. Yet, everyone didn't want to miss the ending, so everyone kept tuning in over and over and over again. But it did seem like there wasn't that next chapter coming. There was no creativity. There was nothing going on. I remember going to Bischoff one time, going, "Eric, what the f--- are we doing? How come every time we gotta go off the air with something like a big brawl, like, tune in next week!" I asked, "How did you used to go off the air?" You used to go back to the announcers and they'd say, "Ladies and gentleman, tune in next week, blah blah blah, we're bringing you this and this and this and this." I said, "Why does it always have to be a hot finish? Why are we always going off the air with a f---in' big brawl? Why don't you just do the sh--, then throw to the announcers, you know, and let them say, "Ladies and gentlemen, tune in next week and we'll bring you Dean Malenko vs. Rey Mysterio, blah blah blah.' What the f--- are you doin'? You keep building this thing. Just my opinion?
Hall: I think at that point in his career, I think sitting on that jet plane, I'm just guessing, I think sitting on that private jet on the way to Daytona, Hulk had to make a decision. What am I going to do? And I think - he had already seen us for a few weeks. It had been a month or whatever. Me and Kev were building some momentum, we were building some steam. I don't think it would have worked - the whole NWO thing would have never worked without Hulk, in my opinion. Like I said earlier, and I'll repeat it again: Hulk's the f'n man. You gotta remember, we get to tell people we're the guys who turned Hulk into a bad guy. Then they go, "Oh, yeah, I remember you guys." I think, you're asking if Hulk had stayed babyface and worked against me and Kev, like Hulk & Sting against Hall & Nash, I don't see it.
Keller: The thing is, fans would have turned against Hulk, and they would have cheered you.
Hall: That's what I mean. The whole thing about it, too, was like, we were kinda cool. We came off that New York TV. We were the sh--. One time I remember me and Kev were standing next to Brad Siegel, Emily's uncle. I said, "Kev, you smell somethin'?" He said, "Yeah, I smell it." I said, "It's us, cause we're the sh--." I mean, we just tortured this guy.
Keller: I think Hulk chose that moment to turn for a reason, because he knew he wanted to be cool again. He wasn't.
Hall: I mean, like I told you before, Hulk told me that when he was a babyface and they were booing him, that sucks, man. That ain't a good feeling. It got to the point where they couldn't even put Hulk on TV because they were booing him. Nitro used to blow. Nitro used to suck. And they couldn't even put their highest paid guy on TV because the fans were booing. You know how marks get. Especially if they think they're getting to you, you're f---ed. If they think they're getting under your skin, you're really f---ed. But, I mean, to have 20 thousand people chanting, "Hogan sucks! Hogan sucks! Hogan sucks!" I mean, what do you do? I think Hulk made a very smart decision. I think he had seen what me and Kev were doin'. At that time, too, you gotta remember, he didn't know me and Kev. I had his attorney do my first contract, that Henry Holmes. He represents George Foreman, Pamela Anderson, Hulk, Mach, this dude is a celebrity lawyer. Then, all of a sudden, you know, it got **** -blocked. So one thing I will give Hulk props for, because one time I asked him, "Did you **** -block me on the Henry Holmes deal?" He said, "Yeah." I said, "I know you, man." He said, "I told him you can't represent him." I said, "I respect you for at least owning up to it." I just got a different lawyer.
Keller: You talked about what a shark tank WCW was. Hogan was used to shark tanks, and he wanted to protect his turf. And he is the ultimate self-preservationis t. And you guys came in, and you guys were hot. He knew he was getting booed. He was vulnerable. You may look back and think it's crazy to say this because Hulk is Hulk, but Hulk probably felt insecure at that moment that he was going to lose leverage, so you guys became his enemies, in a sense, and the best way to deal with that is to get on the team.
Hall: It wasn't always like a real sweet relationship. We had some ups and downs. I'm not gonna lie about it. I'm sure Hulk would say the same thing, and so would Kev. But, we realized that if we would put our petty differences aside and work as a unit that with Hulk's famous noteriety and me and Kev's ability - between the three of us, we were a strong f---ing package. We felt that way. The one thing I always learned, too, I learned early, early on when I broke in, if you act like you're the sh--, you are the sh--. Know what I mean? I learned when I first broke in, you're working as soon as you walk in the curtain. You don't wait for the bell to ring. As soon as you hit the curtain, you're on, you're workin'.
I'll never forget, my first match at Madison Square Garden, I wrestled Randy Savage. I'm standing there. I think I told you last time. My music's playing, and I'm f---ing nervous as f---. Oh my god, Madison Square Garden, Randy Savage, what the f---. And I'm beatin' Savage. Savage don't do no jobs. It's kind of a tense f---in' deal. I'm standin' there and Vince is right there with me. And I'm fixing to hit the curtain because my music has been playing for a little while. Vince said, "Let 'im wait." Let 'im wait." It was like a learning experience for me because I went, "Wow, you're f---n't right." If you act like you're the sh--, you are the sh--. Cause the fans don't know. They buy tickets to come and see a show. They want to see a show. They want to see stars. A lot of people bury (John) Cena. I don't know what your opinion is of John Cena. When I watch him - I've always said, ideally you would be a good worker and be over, but it's better to be over. It don't do you no good to be a good worker. I don't mean to bury Brad Armstrong because he's a sweetheart and I love him to death. Brad Armstrong is one of the best workers in the history of this business, but never really was over, know what I mean? He could f---n' go an hour through with anybody, but he never really was over. I'm not criticizing John Cena because I know he's just developing. I've only seen him a handful of times. He gets booed in towns. What's so funny is it's become hip to boo him. In the northern markets and down south they cheer him. They've almost made hit his gimmick that he don't give a f---.
Keller: He does what you just said - don't let them know they're getting under your skin.
Hall: Exactly. He comes out, he does his sh--. I think he sells pretty good. I think he just needs more ring time. I think he's one of the hottest things they've got going on. I was talking to Kev and I said, "What's the deal with Cena?" He said, "You knoow, his merchandise sells more than anybody else's." So they might boo him, but they're buying his sh--.
Keller: I think the booing makes the fan base that he does have all the more defensive, so they want to go out and buy merchandise.
Hall: I used to always say that, too. I'd rather have people booing me than be quiet. I wrestled Shawn Michaels every day for almost two and a half years and Shawn Michaels, I was kind of a babyfae. We wrestled each other when we were both heels. But I was a babyface, he was a heel, but he a was pretty mother f---er. The chicks liked him. Guy hated him, chick's hated him. We had a great thing going on for two and a half years, every night, all around the world, but it was the same thing. Sometimes people would boo or cheer and it makes the other people get off their asses. If people started cheering Shawn, then the other people would start going, "Razor! Razor!" I agree with you. I used to think sometimes they should plant people in the audience. If you really want to get sophisticated, plant some people in the audience or just pipe it into the p.a. system, if you really want to get slick about it. Vince used to do it before. Before they went live, they used to send Gene Okerlund out and he'd go, "Ladies and gentleman, how many people are here to see the Ultimate Warrior?" People were like, "Yeahhhh!" They take a shot of the whole arena cheering. Then they'd say, "How many people are here to see Kamala?" They'd go, "Boooo!" Then, when you hit the aisle, they'd edit it all in. Kevin Dunn would edit all that sh-- in with people going, "Yeahhhh!" They called it sweetening. They'd turn up the cheers, turn up the boos. I don't know. I'm babbling again.
Keller: When the NWO angle started, especially after Hulk Hogan joined it, and you're looking at the babyface side, did you guys ever sit around and go, "Who are we going to wrestle?"
Hall: I gave Sting "The Crow" gimmick. We were standing next to each other in North Carolina and I'm slicking my hair back and he's sitting there in his neon sh--, but he's not dyeing his hair anymore. He's not bleaching it anymore. And he's letting his hair grow out. And I don't know Sting. He's always been a big deal. When I was in WCW before, I was a jabroni and he was a big star. I went to New York and I've only been (back in WCW) a week or two. So we're standing next to each other at the sinks in the locker room. I'm slickin' my sh-- back because I've gotta go do an interview or something. So Sting enters and I say, "You growin' your hair out, huh?" He goes, "Yeah." I said, "You still gonna wear the neon happy-guy stuff?" He goes, "Yeah, yeah." I said, "You ever see The Crow, man?" He went, "No, I didn't see it." I said, "You outta check it out, man. The guy kinda has his stuff drippin' down. I'm not telling you to trip off the Undertaker, but he kinda acts like Taker." I told him that. And I tell ya' what, he gives me props for it. I will say this. Dallas's book, Sting's quote, he gives me props. He did it on Home Shopping Network one time, he gave me props. To me, that's all I need to know. I just want Sting to know I gave him that gimmick. That's the only satisfaction I need. I don't need none of your royalties or that bullsh--.
But talking about babyfaces to work with, at that time, we didn't care. We felt like our job was to just get over. Cause, the one reference Eric Bischoff always made was, he wanted it to be likehe always references the movie, "Independence Day." Cause remember how no matter what would happen, bam bam bam, all of a sudden this huge spaceship, even when you think the movie's over, the big spaceship rises up and the sh--'s still going on. That was Bischoff's deal. He wanted it to be like the NWO just was indestructible, indestructible, indestructible until the time was right. So we didn't care about heel, babyface, it doesn't f---in' matter. Just get over. So, we didn't really worry about opponents. We just tried to get over.
Keller: And really, for people who watched every single week and were waiting for the next chapter, it got a little repetitive.
Hall: I agree. It got stale. It was getting f---in' stale. Yet, everyone didn't want to miss the ending, so everyone kept tuning in over and over and over again. But it did seem like there wasn't that next chapter coming. There was no creativity. There was nothing going on. I remember going to Bischoff one time, going, "Eric, what the f--- are we doing? How come every time we gotta go off the air with something like a big brawl, like, tune in next week!" I asked, "How did you used to go off the air?" You used to go back to the announcers and they'd say, "Ladies and gentleman, tune in next week, blah blah blah, we're bringing you this and this and this and this." I said, "Why does it always have to be a hot finish? Why are we always going off the air with a f---in' big brawl? Why don't you just do the sh--, then throw to the announcers, you know, and let them say, "Ladies and gentlemen, tune in next week and we'll bring you Dean Malenko vs. Rey Mysterio, blah blah blah.' What the f--- are you doin'? You keep building this thing. Just my opinion?